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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Mar 4, 2010 6:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: light into ashes

In response to a post hidden down below, I'd like to say this:

Years ago, I wrote several lengthy posts about my personal experiences of the early days. These were initially well received--until I picked up a malicious, viral troll.


Over at the "oher place," I tried a series of "Song of the moment" posts. I'd analyze my favorite tune of the moment and leave it open for comments. Folks seemed to lose interest. But then I notice how few responses your posts get. But that's a different place.

Here at LMA, your posts hit home and are of great value. As someone who loved the band from 67-72, I read your posts and walk away with a more comprehensive knowledge that allows me to place what I saw and heard into a greater perspective.

Studying art requires three things: analysis, research, and appreciation. Certainly, there's plenty of appreciation here--sharing this song or show, asking opinions, etc. And there is ocassional analysis. But you are the only one who actually does intensive research. And what you do is important and valuable--it gives not only facts but perpective. I walk away with a lot to think about--how this developed or that time period was influenced by various musical forces.

Your knowledge of the early years rivals--perhaps eclipses in some ways--Cliff's (no offense, Cliff--your knowledge is a deep lake).


And all this from a guy who never saw the band. I find that refreshing and fascinating as your perspective is so clear and objective. That's why I admire Cliff's--he didn't see the band in the early days, yet he writes about them with great authority and knowledge--and love.

All too often, folks tout the shows they were at (guilty).
Seeing a show may add several layers of pleasure--the visual, the audience, the venue--but in the end it comes down to the music.

Your posts are not long--they are thorough. The longer the better. Keep 'em coming.

This post was modified by ghostofpig on 2010-03-04 14:49:53

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 4, 2010 8:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Well, I guess it's been covered by just about everyone above--er, below!...so not much to add. I always enjoy CLIFF's top tens, and the Doc's (Flashback for those newbies), and then LiAs tomes are one in a million. They are defn something that makes this place interesting.

Of course, for me personally, it's all been said before, and it didn't really take long for me to exhaust myself; the handful of shows I have touted over the yrs just get old even if new adjectives are added now and again. So, as GoP notes, without a great deal of effort (trs = "work"), I just can't contribute along the lines of the few real pros hereabouts.

So, in addition to the treasure trove of info provided by the few, the chosen, the hardworking, I find coming here more entertaining as a result of the friendships that have arisen, and the kindness I see repeated again and again what with various individuals providing shows to various individuals, telling new folks about this show or that show, and the like. Lets face it--you can only read the history on the web in small doses (at least for me), and I prefer to do that off site in book form (that's why I am waiting for LiA's first best seller to come out!).

What makes the Forum a living breathing entity is "us"; pure and simple. As good or as bad on a given day as we all chose to make it. That said, I am glad LiA, CLIFF, GoP and all my "friends" (you know who you are) tolerate my less than informative historical contributions around here...

This post was modified by William Tell on 2010-03-05 04:24:08

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Mar 4, 2010 7:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

I was going to respond to the 71 Dark Star post, but instead I hunted down the ones I had not heard ! So , LIA , thanks again .
I wonder if there will ever be anyone to delve into the much less glorious later eras ?

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Mar 4, 2010 8:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Deadmax has posted some wonderful stuff over at the hook. He's been listening to every show, a year or tour at a time. Perhaps he'll post more of that here.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Mar 4, 2010 2:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

It's kind of a shame deadmax confines his reviews to deadhook; but I think he's had objections to some of the interactions in this forum.
That said, so far his reviews are almost all for early '76; so if you want to get a new appreciation for that year, he's the one to turn to. I did manage to get him to post an overview of June '76 here once.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Mar 4, 2010 8:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Thanks, I'll check it out .

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Mar 4, 2010 6:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Amen.

Don't you think that the posts are so thorough that they essentially beg for responses such as "thanks LIA, great post" as opposed to generate discussions? This is not a complaint, just an observation.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Mar 4, 2010 7:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Sometimes you just have to bow down before greatness. And t light into ashes deserves plenty of those. I'm in that catagory most of the time.

Or--if you have something to add or correct (rare as hen's teeth) or disagree with--well, that's fine too!

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Yeah, I've noticed that too.... Used to think my posts might be discussion-starters, but it turns out they're discussion-killers! No one wants to add or correct...
So that pushes me into being more comprehensive in my posts (making sure I cover every angle & don't miss anything); but it also means I don't hear much of people's thoughts on what I talk about....

This post was modified by light into ashes on 2010-03-04 23:30:47

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Well it appears your posts have now generated a discussion about you, so don't feel too bad!!

I will point out that you are not alone. If you watch this board enough, you will notice that show reviews whether a single show or a month of shows like I recall you doing in the past, do not generate as much discussion as threads that pose questions. I guess at some level this makes sense right? If someone writes a good show review or song review, the only responses are to say "nice review" or to disagree with some aspect of it but that is not likely to generate too much true discussion. I seem to recall you and GoP and I recently having a conversation about why the band was more formulaic in the spring of '71 than the fall of '70 and I think it was based on a question in your thread on the topic.

I love your posts and they usually inspire me to listen to something in them immediately even if I don't have time to read them all the way through when the come out. I figure you don't write them in one sitting so no reason I need to read them that way, right? The last one sent me to 10-31-71 for some Dark Star and the rest on that DP. I just think you probably should understand why you don't get a ton of discussion and please don't be discouraged by it.

oh yeah, i think i did try to correct you on one of your posts (omission of the Santa Rosa shows from the Guests thread) and you swatted me like a small bug!! Kidding, you told me you intended to discuss it in your upcoming acoustic thread, which you did. I still think it deserved mention in the Guests one though......

This post was modified by elbow1126 on 2010-03-04 23:40:42

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Mar 4, 2010 6:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

LiA's posts are among the reasons I haven't given up on this place. The scope of the information in his posts always blows me away, as does the effort that obviously goes into researching and writing them. Collectively, LiA's work here is as impressive and comprehensive a summary of the early years as I have seen anywhere, "official" publication or otherwise.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Mar 4, 2010 6:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

None taken!

And ditto!

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Mar 4, 2010 9:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Thanks for calling attention to this, GoP!

LiA's posts are Exhibit A in a longish list of exhibits of how LMA is not just a group chat, but a rich source of insight into the amazing collection of performances the boys have left us. I have learned so much from so many people here, that I'm frankly still digesting the amazing shows and tracks I've been pointed to.

Both LiA and Cliff have given us much-appreciated catalogs of their own listening work. My only regret is that these guides are scattered among so many other posts here at LMA. Anyone up for collecting some sort of index with links to those remarkable posts?

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Mar 4, 2010 9:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Case in point--this post is three years old this weekend, and I found it only because I had remembered it as a useful resource. Even then, I had to fool around with various search terms before hitting on "hucker ballroom", which turned it up as 1 of 26. How many of the newer members of this madhouse would have come across it?

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=108560

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

That's a sterling example of an excellent older post. (And, unfortunately, the kind of post Cliff hasn't done in a while.)

One sad thing is that newer forumites who've only been here a year or two haven't seen some of the amazing posts that HeLives did. But that's the nature of time, we're always missing something.

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Ah yes, thanks for reminding us of his work. He was truly your brother in prolixity. The index should definitely include his offerings as well.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Mar 4, 2010 10:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Don't tell me this town ain't got no Heart



Just gotta poke around


For those of you who have never played around with the search feature it can uncover some interesting old stuff, I used it once to track down the first post in the Grateful Dead forum once.

Another good tool is the link by author - just click on the underlined user name and magically all of that users posts come up (good, bad & ugly).

Remember this thread?
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=220580



This post was modified by jglynn1.2 on 2010-03-04 18:15:03

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Well, I've done some collecting for myself -
http://deadessays.blogspot.com

I reserve it for my 'bigger' posts though, so my history of posts here is more well-rounded. Still figuring out how to make that more of a useful reference site with more topics covered, since left to myself I tend to get bogged down in huge essays on 1970 or Dark Star or whatnot.

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Brilliant! Now I can delete my bookmark to your acoustic sets report and replace it with a bookmark to your blog. Thanks!

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Mar 4, 2010 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes


Me three - LIA's posts are fantastic, even if they do distract me from work (or maybe because they do)

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 4, 2010 7:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

"All too often, folks tout the shows they were at (guilty)."

ditto for me... not to mention, I taped half of the GD shows I attended. Let me try and put it another way for you.

I, for one. am ridiculously guilty about touting (and LOVING) the shows I attended - my shows were in 1973. Some of the indoors shows kind of sucked because of the "boomy" sound quality, like Nassau Coliseum, for example. It was disappointing to me, anyway. But, attending Grateful Dead shows has always been at the heart of the GD's amazing reputation.

Look, I still need a blood transfusion. The IA is wonderful place to share these experiences. What's interesting to me is that now we can go back and look at the GD body of work as a whole. It's quite an experience to see all of that. With this said, now listen to the shows you've attended while "measuring them" against all their other shows now available on IA. No other band I know of has this enormous context from which to draw upon, when they present their live music tapes to you on IA. Not to mention photos, videos, articles, etc.

Excuse me. Please, may I remind everyone about the fundamental notion here? We are Dead-Heads. More than anything else, we loved going to their shows. Why? a) The music could be incredible. b) The sound could be amazing. c) The scene could be fantastic. This is what is was all about — when The Grateful Dead was a band that played live music at shows.

Bottom line, what is the #1 thing that can be said about GD live shows vs. listening to their tapes? If you ever had the good fortune of hitting a GD show with a, b, and c, above, all hitting beautifully in full stride, then you know what I'm talking about. As for the rest of you, opening your minds to the hippie lifestyle is a good starting point. Keep reading here and asking us more questions. Eventually you should "get it."

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Mar 4, 2010 8:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

"There is nothing like a Grateful Dead show."

Of course being somewhere amplifies the experience of the actual event. Living through a disaster or being at a sports event is so much more intense than watching it on t.v.

I'm not going to pretend for a minute that seeing a show at the Fillmore East wasn't an experience that transcended the music. The place, the vibe, the proximity to the band, friends, the smell of weed, the buzz, acid, the scene outside and inside, seeing the look on Jerry's face, watching Pigpen strut his stuff, looking at a ponytailed Bobby, and so much more.
My favorite venue by far--and it always tripled the intensity of the shows.

Worst show I saw? Nassau Colliseum, 1973. Standing on a sterile basketball court behind five thousand screaming born again Deadheads didn't do it for me. Even if the SHOW was a good one, it didn't hit me. I left before the encore.
(BTW, I heard the sbd--it wasn't bad).

That's all valid, of course. The Dead were, after all, a scene as well as a band. But when one separates the music from the three dimensional experience--that's a different thing altogether.

I was fortunate enough to have seen a good many shows that hold up on tape. I think that 6 or 7 have made it to official releases. And hearing the crisp sound that was captured is a different experience than being there. Not better; different.

In real time, the music comes and goes. On tape it is forever, and there is plenty of time to listen carefully and catch the nuances. You can hear the interplay so much better. And you can hear it again.

So each is good--seeing and hearing--and I am fortuante to have done both.

Favorite show? 2-14-70. Why? Because I was there and because the tape is so damn fine. Favorite show musically? 3-01-69. Wasn't there, but damn I wish I had been. Favorite expereimce? 6-10-67. A bunch of scruffy guys from San Franscisco in a small room blasting out music we'd never heard before--and hanging out on the corner. I couldn't tell you if it was a top ten show because the night overwhelmed the music (though Viola Lee Blues about made me piss my pants).

Time and place--and music.

It's all good.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Mar 4, 2010 9:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Nassau Coliseum 1973 shows were a 2-edged sword for me too. Truth is, I recorded "over" those tapes a long time ago, so I couldn't remember the "music." Funny, I agree again with you about the Coliseum SBDs. I spot-checked them over a year ago. If I remember, they didn't sound that bad, maybe even pretty damn good.

For me, I first began hearing the underground GD live music sound on their tapes in '72. I already had their albums. I had been to plenty of top name concerts, and had lots of other albums. But, hearing those GD tapes from my friend Jimmy Watson blew me away. Then, I went to my first GD shows after that. Once RFK Stadium happened in June 1973, THE SOUND system hugely came onto The Scene, for all of us in my area. And, we had my Tapes.

If I follow just "the music" aspect of it - which I actually did from 1975 - 1977 as a soundman - I personally had a huge problem (or frustration) with GD in 1973. The problem for me was "accessing it." I lived on the east coast and didn't "tour" with the band. When they played in my area, I saw every single show. In my case, over half of them were hugely large venues. That's not my scene, and for me, going to Watkins Glen was way over the top. I went mostly because I loved the band. Intimate venues are a much more pleasant experience for me. I guess that's why so many heads went "touring"? Eventually, if you were touring, I suppose you will get your fill of "access" over a span of time.

So I started exploring the music scene, the musicians, and the bands in my area. I quickly found the best of the best. I had 100% access with them 24/7: hanging out, going to other shows together, being at their jams, collecting cover charge money at the door for them, roadie stuff for them, learning their sound equipment and their sound systems, etc. That's how I fell off the bus for awhile, so to speak. All I did was to stop going to Dead shows. But actually, I was hugely into the music scene until 1977. These musicians -- I'm talking about all the musicians I taped, were some of the best players in the world. (That's why I taped them!)

I've heard many of the best musicians out there criticize, admire, discuss, analyze, and play some of the greatest music ever played. Look at me, I can't play one note, or even sing or dance. So, now all you readers know why I stay away from being a music critic. Rather than attempting to write show reviews, I use the Forums instead. I've talked alot about being a hippie, and the GD sound system, and I've mentioned how I enjoyed the shows I attended.

So coming back to GD and listening to their tapes is all we have here and now. As a man among music critics, or as a music lover, for me, I am obligated to draw from the greater body of music - and the greater body of live music tapes out there. This is exactly what IA and the LMA are all about, imo. That's the way I see it. It's a huge tapestry.

The Forums can multiply this experience.

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Poster: jerrys beard Date: Mar 4, 2010 7:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Perfectly stated GoP (Republican? sorry a little ADHD moment there).

In addition to the incredible insights LiA provides, they give me a fantastic reason to revisit shows that I may not have listened to for awhile and then hear then anew (what a word...anew). I will listen to a DS with LiA's post and follow his pathway through the song and it really opens it up in ways that I hadn't thought of before.

I'd like to think that LiA is the antiTroll...

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Mar 4, 2010 3:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: light into ashes

Shucks, folks. Thanks.